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Faith - coming to know Jesus as he really is.
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QuantumGreg
#21 Posted : Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:19:18 AM

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BrotherBert wrote:
Valerie, thanks for your further comments on this. And I do hear you regarding the need for justice/punishment.
As I later stated (should have earlier), my bigger confusion regarded how Christ seemed to view sickness as of the devil, where He sometimes became even righteously angry at the illness invading people. Just seemed odd that on the one side you have God putting the illness on people, yet on the other Jesus rebuking it.

I think what you, Greg and others have stated in various ways makes sense; Indeed the illness is the result of God's judgment on a wayward people, but that Jesus came to abolish it. And, in a real sense, it IS from the devil, in that he has done everything to get us to sin and be apart from God.

BrotherBert I hear ya. I've studied this very thing quite a lot and have several answers to it. But check this out:

1. Father God brought sickness to punish (kill) in the Old Testament because His just nature demanded it. Sin results in death. But even in the Old Testament, God calls sickness A CURSE (Deuteronomy 28:15ff). So even though He utilized it, He did not call it some kind of back-handed blessing from God to make you more humble or teach you. No, the teaching occurred as the prophets' warnings, and if the warnings were ignored, then PUNISHMENT came. So even in the Old Testament, God DID NOT USE SICKNESS TO TEACH OR HUMBLE; He used it to kill.

2. Father God doesn't bring sickness in the New Testament because it is now UNJUST to put sickness on purchased vessels. Jesus' blood cleansed sin away and made us pure like He is pure. Therefore, all sickness HAD to be from the devil because it was existing UNJUSTLY on the ones Jesus had purchased with His blood. Remember... Jesus looked FORWARD to the cross and forgave sin and healed disease based on that; we look BACKWARD to the cross and get forgiveness and healing. During His ministry, and all during this New Kingdom we live under with Jesus as Lord, it is UNJUST for sickness to even be here! Sickness is OUTLAWED, and we, as policemen go about to enforce its defeat. It doesn't matter if you "left the door open" so that you are sick; IT IS STILL ILLEGAL. Would the policeman ask you, "Did you leave the front door open so the thief came in?" No! It doesn't matter if your door was open or not; IT IS STILL ILLEGAL for him to steal from you. He will be charged with either breaking and entering (if he kicked the door in), or with illegal entry (if he merely opened the door). KICK HIM OUT!

There are some other ways I have found to resolve this that are a bit more involved scripturally, but I don't want to necessarily get that in-depth here.
Jesus, kill me with your compassion.
Check out my healing journal.
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Andy_uk
#22 Posted : Thursday, June 10, 2010 5:53:36 AM
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QuantumGreg wrote:
Andy_uk wrote:
...Now imagine its Jesus behind the doctors seat...

Wow, Andy_uk, excellent example. This really helps my mind. Thanks!

Andy_uk wrote:
...I want the same confidence Smith Wigglesworth had in Jesus the healer. Maybe he got that by only reading the Bible and simply refusing to doubt God's willingness to heal when he didn't get the result he asked for. Only believe ! - as he used to say.

Yes. But I have found a few inconsistencies even in Smith's faith. For instance; he wouldn't pray for the sick while walking around in the streets normally unless he "heard the Spirit" specifically say. In fact in one sermon I read of his he actually cautions the believer against it. He said something like, "I passed by the man with the crippled legs and I felt the Spirit say, 'Offer to pray for the man's complete healing!' and so I did. Now, you should never do that unless the Spirit has specifically told you to do so." And there might be some wisdom there... but I see it only a little bit different and maybe I shouldn't. I'm always thinking, isn't the compassion I feel for the crippled man Jesus' compassion anyways? And therefore, isn't that ALWAYS God's heart? It seems to me that Father God would not want me to wait for specific instruction, but to jump right in and fully and boldly assume God wants me to pray for the crippled person anyway... all the time. But, I'm certainly not speaking from the point of success like Smith! But I do see Jesus seemingly acting this way and not necessarily the way Smith is saying.

Also, another thing about Smith... I've always wondered why he didn't ever train anyone to do what he did. He didn't pass along his gifts. This is why I sometimes get more out of a John G. Lake sermon instead of a Smith one. John is trying to pass along HOW to get the sick healed, not just healing the sick like Smith.

I love Smith, though, man. I read his & John's sermons every day as a daily devotional. I also learned that later in Smith's life he changed his hard-nosed view about reading only scripture. A brother in Christ said something like this to him, "Smith, by reading a book by a brother in Christ, you are merely listening to HIS sermon of what HE has learned from the same Word of God that you read. Why limit yourself to YOUR revelations of Jesus?" This changed Smith's view on all books are bad. But I still don't think he ever read any other ones... LOL... you gotta love him man... he was awesome.

"Only believe!"



Greg I agree. Jesus seemed to have a word of knowledge about some healings, but did not have perfect knowledge at other times and just healed all that came to him. I don't see why we can't pray for anyone. Of course if they refuse to allow prayer in Jesus name, nothings going to happen. However most people won't. Perhaps its good Smith didn't pass on his methods or there would be a few cracked ribs to heal if anyone tried it without the same degree of faith ! Big Grin

The thing they both had in common was a massive trust and confidence in Jesus the Healer. So does Roger and anyone else God's power to heal is flowing through. Where the church has missed it, is that they haven't preached Jesus the healer. Instead they've preached Jesus the unpredictable - which is a fictitious invention not found in scripture. I wish I had a hot meal for all the times I hear other Christians tell me 'we believe in the literal word of God', and when it comes to healing, they change what it says. John G Lake has some very good sermons on this. We are educated in doubt from the pulpit instead of being told the truth about Jesus.
The clearer I can see Jesus, the more confident I get.
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katabillups
#23 Posted : Sunday, June 13, 2010 4:54:06 PM

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jimman wrote:
Good topic and discussion. I still get thrown off course when the question pops up in my head and asks Why did God give them laws that he knew they couldn't keep?


OK I GOT THE ANSWER FOR THIS. IT IS IN ROMANS. MOREOVER THE LAW ENTERED. LOOK ENTERED UP IN THE STRONGS IN THE GREEK. IT IS A STRATEGIC MILITARY WORD. THE LAW ENTERED RIGHT IN ALONGSIDE THE SIN SO THAT MAN WOULD BE GUILTY ON GOD's TERMS NOT ON THE DEVILS TERMS! AND IN GODS PERFECT MILITARY STRATEGY---HE KNEW HE WOULD ONE DAY FIND A BELIEVING WOMAN (MARY) AND COULD SEND THE SAVIOR FROM SIN. ALL COMPLETELY LEGAL AND ON GOD's TERMS. ROMANS USES MANY WORDS FOUND IN A COURT OF LAW. JUSTIFIED, ADVOCATE, RIGHTEOUS, etc. OUR REDEMPTION HAD TO BE LEGAL - LEGAL TO GOD AND THE DEVIL BOTH.
Hello! THE TITLE OF THIS PIECE IS JESUS came to sup with us AND BROUGHT MY CAT A BAG OF FOOD. I am an artist (a painter) and my husband is a great husband and business man. We have get to share Dr. Roger S@pp's HEALING message at a small group very Weds. eve. We are all seeing The Lord do fantastic healings in the midst of us. My art work is fairly diverse but I believe THE LORD has given me two specific bodies of work to create.
NUMBER ONE: I paint the Rock and Roll Icons of the 60's and 70's in humorous situations that poke playful fun at their idol status. I will not give my web site in this forum, because some people will not understand my message or method. For you art savvy people I will say there are hints of Goya and other artists: social COMMENTATORS. I highly recommend the film GOYA'S GHOST. His work condemned the heinous works within the Catholic church during his time. If you want to see my work, (AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION!) google my name. k@ta bi11ups. Quite a few of famous actors and musicians and film makers collect this body of work. My favorite is Susan Sarandon because she stated in a magazine article that her greatest hero was Jesus Christ. GO Susan!

NUMBER TWO: My Masters Thesis work is entitled The Case for an Emotional Jesus in Painting. Most artists for over 2,000 years have concentrated on the Divinity of Christ but not his humanity. This body of work is ALSO considered highly controversial by SOME. The work emphasizes His emotions as He reacts to and interacts with contemporary American culture. This is not Biblical Illustration, but a new way of painting Christ for our time. If you have a "beef" with how I paint Christ, or any other subject matter please contact me directly and I may be able to shed some light on my mission and the historical precedent for work like mine.
Thanks!
K@ta
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Andy_uk on 6/23/2010
Merv Davis
#24 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:47:33 AM
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Andy_uk wrote:
I wonder if anyone has ever managed to walk on water or throw a mountain into the sea ? I guess we'll find out in heaven ! Big Grin


Dear Andy, Thanks for what you have shared over all. I think this will help me because I can see in me the strong tendency to be feeling very guilty at the slightest thing in my life that is perhaps not quite right. Rather bound up really. i just want to be free of that fear and legalism. Thanks for praying for me in this regard as I do really want to see people healed too as part of the full gospel.

Having said that I just wanted to comment on the walking on water bit because years ago at Bible college where we heard many missionaries speak, there came the story of a pastor in Indonesia who because of flooded rivers, could not visit remote villages, so he simply asked the Lord that he could walk across the river; and he did!! As far a moving mountains, we heard last year from a lady from Papua New Guinea who talked about her father or grandfather's village where the water source was quite a distance away. The village people or the grandfather prayed that the Lord would supply their need and soon after there was an earthquake that caused a land slide that ended very close to the village, and out of that land slide a stream of water flowed which is there still flowing to this day.!! Yes, the Lord can move mountains!! Praise Him.

Blessings Merv
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katabillups on 7/26/2010
Andy_uk
#25 Posted : Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:04:57 AM
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Merv Davis wrote:
Andy_uk wrote:
I wonder if anyone has ever managed to walk on water or throw a mountain into the sea ? I guess we'll find out in heaven ! Big Grin


Having said that I just wanted to comment on the walking on water bit because years ago at Bible college where we heard many missionaries speak, there came the story of a pastor in Indonesia who because of flooded rivers, could not visit remote villages, so he simply asked the Lord that he could walk across the river; and he did!! As far a moving mountains, we heard last year from a lady from Papua New Guinea who talked about her father or grandfather's village where the water source was quite a distance away. The village people or the grandfather prayed that the Lord would supply their need and soon after there was an earthquake that caused a land slide that ended very close to the village, and out of that land slide a stream of water flowed which is there still flowing to this day.!! Yes, the Lord can move mountains!! Praise Him.

Blessings Merv


Awesome, thanks for sharing. Doesn't surprise me that someone has done it. If Jesus did it, potentially so can we. I'm sure 'religious' people would see that as an absolute blasphemy, but if we believe, we can do greater things, 'cause Jesus said we would !
The clearer I can see Jesus, the more confident I get.
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katabillups
#26 Posted : Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:34:31 AM

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GREG----I LOVE OVER 99 percent of your research and I truly believe you are a brilliant researcher of God's Word. I quote you --- "These things prove that God in the OT had to treat Israel the way He did (giving them sickness and disease) because His justice demanded it."
have you fully researched this out? I assert that it is church dogma and not God's Word in FULL. Yes, I know Leviticus and the statements about the blessings and curses. But what about the NT statements such as how God can not be tempted with evil neither tempteth He any man? and WAS it an evil spirit from The LORD that came upon Saul---or in fact an evil spirit from the devil? I assert that in the OT. God was taking the "rap" for evil spirits because they were an unseen foe---and Christ had not yet revealed the unseen enemy. I may be "just a gall" but I ask you to research something called the IDIOM OF PERMISSION and let me know what you think- because I do solidly respect your research Biblically. I believe E.W Bullinger first researched it. but I may be wrong.
Hello! THE TITLE OF THIS PIECE IS JESUS came to sup with us AND BROUGHT MY CAT A BAG OF FOOD. I am an artist (a painter) and my husband is a great husband and business man. We have get to share Dr. Roger S@pp's HEALING message at a small group very Weds. eve. We are all seeing The Lord do fantastic healings in the midst of us. My art work is fairly diverse but I believe THE LORD has given me two specific bodies of work to create.
NUMBER ONE: I paint the Rock and Roll Icons of the 60's and 70's in humorous situations that poke playful fun at their idol status. I will not give my web site in this forum, because some people will not understand my message or method. For you art savvy people I will say there are hints of Goya and other artists: social COMMENTATORS. I highly recommend the film GOYA'S GHOST. His work condemned the heinous works within the Catholic church during his time. If you want to see my work, (AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION!) google my name. k@ta bi11ups. Quite a few of famous actors and musicians and film makers collect this body of work. My favorite is Susan Sarandon because she stated in a magazine article that her greatest hero was Jesus Christ. GO Susan!

NUMBER TWO: My Masters Thesis work is entitled The Case for an Emotional Jesus in Painting. Most artists for over 2,000 years have concentrated on the Divinity of Christ but not his humanity. This body of work is ALSO considered highly controversial by SOME. The work emphasizes His emotions as He reacts to and interacts with contemporary American culture. This is not Biblical Illustration, but a new way of painting Christ for our time. If you have a "beef" with how I paint Christ, or any other subject matter please contact me directly and I may be able to shed some light on my mission and the historical precedent for work like mine.
Thanks!
K@ta
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katabillups
#27 Posted : Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:45:25 AM

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here it is---IDIOM OF PERMISSION

Apologetics Press - Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart?
In his copious work on biblical figures of speech, E.W. Bullinger listed several ways that the Hebrew and ... translators of the New King James Version recognized the idiom and ...
www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2259 - Cached
Hello! THE TITLE OF THIS PIECE IS JESUS came to sup with us AND BROUGHT MY CAT A BAG OF FOOD. I am an artist (a painter) and my husband is a great husband and business man. We have get to share Dr. Roger S@pp's HEALING message at a small group very Weds. eve. We are all seeing The Lord do fantastic healings in the midst of us. My art work is fairly diverse but I believe THE LORD has given me two specific bodies of work to create.
NUMBER ONE: I paint the Rock and Roll Icons of the 60's and 70's in humorous situations that poke playful fun at their idol status. I will not give my web site in this forum, because some people will not understand my message or method. For you art savvy people I will say there are hints of Goya and other artists: social COMMENTATORS. I highly recommend the film GOYA'S GHOST. His work condemned the heinous works within the Catholic church during his time. If you want to see my work, (AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION!) google my name. k@ta bi11ups. Quite a few of famous actors and musicians and film makers collect this body of work. My favorite is Susan Sarandon because she stated in a magazine article that her greatest hero was Jesus Christ. GO Susan!

NUMBER TWO: My Masters Thesis work is entitled The Case for an Emotional Jesus in Painting. Most artists for over 2,000 years have concentrated on the Divinity of Christ but not his humanity. This body of work is ALSO considered highly controversial by SOME. The work emphasizes His emotions as He reacts to and interacts with contemporary American culture. This is not Biblical Illustration, but a new way of painting Christ for our time. If you have a "beef" with how I paint Christ, or any other subject matter please contact me directly and I may be able to shed some light on my mission and the historical precedent for work like mine.
Thanks!
K@ta
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